JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Steve, I want to talk about Harvard for a minute, and I want to talk about specifically the Trump administration.

Seemingly war, I guess you could say, on Harvard.

What's the motivation for this campaign?

Harvard is obviously fighting back against it, but what's the motivation, the core motivation?

STEPHEN HAYES: So, I'd say there's a substantive motivation and a political motivation.

The political motivation is, it's probably good politics for Donald Trump.

He puts himself out as the sort of champion of the common man.

There's no better way to reinforce that image than by picking a fight with one of America's most prestigious universities.

So, it's probably a political win for Donald Trump.

On the substantive side, you have, and I'd say, conservatives in general have had problems with not only Harvard, but problems with elite institutions, higher education for rank discrimination, for aggressive over the top DEI policies, things that I think have some merit arguments that have some merit.

The Trump team has taken this sort of, and then done that times ten, times a hundred.

J.D.

Vance gave a speech at a National Conservatism Conference in 2021 before he was a candidate for the Senate.

And the title of the speech was Professors Are the Enemy.

And it was a 30-minute stem-winder about all of the problems with all the problems with higher education, all the problems with academia, and said, the university are ruining our kids, they're corrupting our kids, they're the enemies.

They're not teaching the truth.

They're teaching lies and deception.

So, that's sort of where I think a lot of this comes from.

And it's a plan.

I mean, this is not -- none of this is happening by accident.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Leigh Ann, how's this playing politically?

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: This is -- well, let's say two different things.

On the Hill, Republicans do not -- this is not something that they want to break with a president on.

This is not an issue that they're willing to stand in front of him on like most issues, I should say.

Politically, you know.

I actually don't know the answer to that.

I think that most Americans, from what I am reading in the polls and when I'm talking to my sources, say this is not on top of mind.

This is not what they elected Donald Trump to do.

And, you know, that is something that I've heard from Republicans say that they hear from voters on the issue of DOGE and government spending and that sort of stuff.

But like this just seems pretty extreme for people who want immigration crackdown and want lower costs.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Peter, is Harvard in real trouble?

PETER BAKER: Well look, you know, this is an administration that's been very clever and methodical about its use of government pressure on Harvard.

They keep finding a new way to attack Harvard every single day.

And on some of these, they may win.

We don't know.

Obviously, it's now starting to move its way through the court.

A judge this week said, no, you can't suddenly cut off their international students for the moment.

It is going to go eventually to the Supreme Court where there are a number of Harvard graduates sitting at the moment.

I don't know what that means in terms of their personal -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Some of them might hate Harvard, but that's what we'll find out.

PETER BAKER: I mean, you know, I mean, J.D.

Vance is a Yale graduate.

I obviously, some people came out of this experience in the Ivy League's feeling quite bitter about it, right?

And they feel like they maybe as maybe a lone conservative in a liberal institution felt motivated to attack the best -- STEPHEN HAYES: I mean, I'm sympathetic to the lack of ideological diversity to some of these arguments.

I think there's a risk for some blowback.

If you look at what Trump is doing, he's demanding five years of videos of protests.

He's saying that they need to meet some ideological diversity test to prove by a third party.

That's a problem.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Well, we'll probably be talking about this again because this seems to be a sincere commitment on the part of the Trump administration, despite what you point out, Leigh Ann, that it might not be top of mind for the average voter, but it's definitely top of mind for this administration.

But we are going to have to leave it there.