>> HELLO, EVERYONE, WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> A RUSSIAN DRONE ABOVE, UKRAINIANS OPEN FIRE.

>> AN ESCALATING WAR IN DISGUISE AS KYIV DEPLOYS THE LARGEST ATTACK ON RUSSIA IN A YEAR.

ARE THEY TURNING THE TABLES ON THE BATTLEFIELD?

WE HAVE THE REPORT FROM THE FRONT LINES AND ANALYSIS FROM A FORMER OFFICIAL.

> >> THEN -- >> IT'S A FAILED NATION, TOTALLY FAILED NATION.

>> CUBA UNDER FIRE, PREPARING TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM THE U. S. , I ASKED JUAN GONZALEZ ABOUT THE ONGOING TENSIONS.

> >> ALSO AHEAD - - >> HE'S ONE OF THE MOST EDUCATED MEN IN THE COUNTRY.

NOT BLACK MEN.

>> W. E. B. DUBOIS, "REBEL WITH A CAUSE," THE LIFE AND LEGACY OF A CIVIL RIGHTS PIONEER, THE DIRECTOR SPEAKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN.

♪ ♪ > >> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M IN NEW YORK, I'M SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

> >> LETHAL RECORDS ARE BEING SET ALMOST DAILY IN THE WAR WITH RUSSIA, THREE PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN MOSCOW AFTER UKRAINE LAUNCHED MORE THAN 500 DRONES.

IT'S THE LARGEST ATTACK IN A YEAR ACCORDING TO THE RUSSIAN NEWS AGENCY.

THE BIGGEST PROLONGED DRONE ATTACK SINCE THE WAR BEGAN.

AT LEAST 25 WERE KILLED THERE.

EVEN AS THE AIR WAR EXPANDS, THE TIDE ON THE GROUND MAY BE TURNING.

UKRAINE FINALLY MANAGED TO CAPTURE MORE LAND THAN RUSSIA SEIZED.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY HAS WARNED RUSSIA TO EXPECT MORE ATTACKS.

>> Translator: OUR OPERATIONS ARE HIGHER THAN THE RUSSIANS.

THIS IS A SERIOUS RESULT.

WE'LL INCREASE ALL KINDS OF SUPPLIES FOR THE ARMY, RESOURCES TO MAINTAIN THE PROPER PROTECTION.

>> ON THE POLITICAL FRONT, ZELENSKYY IS PLAYING DEFENSE.

THEY NAMED HIS POWERFUL CHIEF OF STAFF AS A SUSPECT IN A CORRUPTION PROBE.

FIRST, NICK PATON WALSH GETS A LOOK AT THE WARFARE FROM EASTERN UKRAINE.

>> Reporter: THEY CALL THIS THE ROAD OF LIFE.

IT'S ABOUT SURVIVAL, NOT LIVING.

ON FOOT, RULED BY KILLER DRONES TARGETING ANY VEHICLE.

THE NETS TRYING TO BLOCK THE HORROR FROM ABOVE.

IF YOU CAN, MAKE THE ROBOT YOUR FRIEND.

THOUGH MACHINES ARE NORMALLY THE ENEMY HERE.

>> PRETTY MUCH ALL OVER THE FRONT LINES, TINY FIBER OPTIC CABLE USED TO CONNECT DRONES TO THEIR CONTROLLER AND GO ON FOR TENS OF KILOMETERS, STOPPING THE JAMMING BEFORE -- THE RUSSIAN DRONE ABOVE.

UKRAINIANS OPEN FIRE.

[ GUNSHOTS ] >> IN THE DOORWAY.

>> Reporter: THEY HIT IT.

THAT'S THE IMPACT.

AND YOU HAVE TO SPLIT OUT BECAUSE THE DRONE WILL TRY AND TARGET GROUPS OF INDIVIDUALS.

SOMETIMES ONE, TWO, THREE, YOU FIND.

WE'RE DOING THE USUAL WALK ALONG THIS ROAD BETWEEN TWO UKRAINIAN POSITIONS.

IT TAKES FIVE HOURS AND WE'RE BUZZED BY ATTACK DRONES 14 TIMES.

THE THREATS CHANGE EVERY MONTH.

HERE, LOOKING FOR LOITERING DRONES, THEY HOVER LOW AND WAIT FOR YOU.

A RADIO WARNING.

THE TREES AREN'T JUST A PLACE TO HIDE BUT SOMEWHERE DRONES CAN'T FLY.

RUSSIAN DRONES CIRCLE, TARGETING VEHICLES, BUT ALSO DROPPING EXPLOSIVES ON TROOPS.

YOU HAVE TO KEEP MOVING OR THEY MAY SWARM AROUND YOU.

THE BATTLEFIELD HAS COMPLETELY CHANGED IN THE MATTER OF A YEAR.

NOBODY DRIVES CARS ON THIS ROAD UNLESS YOU HAVE TO.

NOBODY DRIVES TANKS.

THAT'S OUTGOING ARTILLERY.

THESE ROBOTS USED FOR RESUPPLY.

UP AHEAD, WE CAN SEE PEOPLE REPAIRING THE NETS, KEY PROTECTION.

BUT THESE USED TO RESUPPLY FOOD, AMMUNITION, ALL AROUND THE FRONT LINE.

THEY FIRE ON DRONES AGAIN.

THIS IS A PRETTY CONSTANT, THE ONLY MOVE IS HIDE INTO THE TREES.

THERE IT LANDS.

NOT FAR.

YOU MIGHT BE THINKING, WHY NOT WALK INSIDE THE NETS.

[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE, AFTER AN HOUR OF THIS, YOU DON'T QUITE GET NUMB TO IT, BUT THERE'S SOMETHING HERE, YOU GET SLIGHTLY TOO COMFORTABLE.

TIRED.

>> THE NEXT ONE IS RIGHT ON TOP OF US.

>> Reporter: THERE IT IS.

THERE IT IS.

[ GUNSHOTS ] >> Reporter: THEY HIT IT.

THAT GRAY STREAK.

AND IT FALLS.

WHIRRING DOWN.

BUT IT HASN'T DETONATED.

DEBRIS DRIFTS.

THERE'S BEEN NO BLAST.

SO WE ARE ALIVE.

IT MAY HAVE BEEN A RECON DRONE, BUT FLEW LIKE A RUSSIAN ATTACKER.

DOWN THE ROAD IS THE FRONT WHERE THE KREMLIN'S ADVANCE HAS BEEN SLOWED TO A CRAWL AT THE ENORMOUS COST ACROSS THE FRONT OF 35,000 RUSSIAN DEAD AND WOUNDED A MONTH, SAYS UKRAINE.

THIS IS THE TENTH ATTACK.

BECOMING CLOSER NOW.

INTENSE FIRE.

YOU CAN HEAR IT.

SEE IT UP THERE.

DRONES ALSO TARGET HEAVY GUNFIRE.

THEIR FRIEND, A LIEUTENANT, KILLED WHEN THIS CAR WAS HIT JUST TWO DAYS AGO.

WE'RE NEARING THEIR BUNKER POSITION.

THERE ARE MOMENTS HERE TO REST, SEE THE TROPHIES OF DRONES THAT FAILED, BUT WE HAVE TO GET BACK.

[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: AS SOON AS WE EMERGE, THEY'RE ABOVE US AGAIN.

THIS IS THE NEW WAR HERE, HIDE, SHOOT AT THE SKY, RUN.

FIRE DRONES BACK.

THE IMPACTS JUST AS DEADLY AS SHELLING.

THE ACCURACY HORRIFIC.

YOU HAVE TO WALK IN BUT ALSO WALK OUT.

THE BUZZ STAYS WITH YOU, RINGING IN YOUR EARS FOR HOURS LATER.

NO RESPITE.

THE GRAY SMOKE, PERHAPS IT HIT THE NET.

THAT WAS CLOSE, LOUD, YOU COULD HEAR THE SHRAPNEL LANDING ON THE TARMAC, CLEARLY TARGETING THAT ARMORED VEHICLE.

IT IS HARD TO SEE HOW THIS GRIND IS A WIN, BUT IT IS.

UKRAINE ON FOOT, ROBOTS IN SUPPORT, AUTOMATION REPLACING SCARCE TROOPS, HOLDING GROUND.

THE DRONES NEVER STOP, BUT NEITHER DOES UKRAINE, ADAPTING, LEARNING, ENGINEERING THIS NEW WARFARE AND HOPING ANY EDGE SUSTAINS LONG ENOUGH TO PUT RUSSIA IN REVERSE.

>> FASCINATING LOOK AT MODERN DAY WARFARE, THANKS NICK FOR THAT REPORT.

FOR A CLOSER LOOK AT THE LATEST MILITARY AND POLITICAL DEVELOPMENTS, VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY'S MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT JOINS US NOW LIVE.

IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

LET'S GO BACK TO THE DRONE ATTACKS WE SAW OVER THE WEEKEND TARGETING THE MOSCOW REGION SPECIFICALLY.

REFINERIES, AIRPORTS.

RUSSIA SAYING OVER 500 DRONES WERE INTERCEPTED, YET IT'S CLEAR SOME MADE IT THROUGH.

HOW SIGNIFICANTLY, IN YOUR OPINION, DOES BRINGING THE WAR DIRECTLY TO RUSSIA'S CAPITAL IMPACT VLADIMIR PUTIN'S THINKING ABOUT WHERE THIS WAR GOES NEXT?

>> I THINK RUSSIA IS THE MOTHER STATE, THE IDEOLOGY IS THERE.

YOU HAVE TO BRING THE FIGHT HOME TO THEM, OTHERWISE THEY CAN KEEP SENDING TROOPS.

MOSCOW IS DIFFERENT FROM RUSSIA.

THEY KEEP SENDING INFANTRY TO DIE BASICALLY FROM OTHER REGIONS.

AS LONG AS MOSCOW IS SAFE, THE WAR CAN CONTINUE.

I THINK IT'S FUNDAMENTALLY IMPORTANT TO BRING THE WAR TO MOSCOW.

>> WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

HOW DOES PUTIN'S CALCULUS CHANGE FROM KYIV'S PERSPECTIVE IF WE SEE MORE LONG-RANGE ATTACKS LIKE THIS, SPECIFICALLY IN RUSSIA'S CAPITAL?

>> MY EXPECTATION, I MIGHT BE WRONG, BUT IT WILL EXPEDITE NEGOTIATIONS AND SOME FORM OF END TO HOSTILITIES.

THAT'S THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO BRING THE WAR TO AN END.

I'VE BEEN ON RECORD ABOUT THIS SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE FULL- SCALE INVASION.

>> YOU'VE MENTIONED IT HERE IN INTERVIEWS WITH US AS WELL.

THE QUESTION IS NOT THE LETHALITY OF UKRAINE'S REACH BUT HOW SUSTAINABLE IT IS IN TERMS OF SCALING THIS TO BECOME A CONSTANT FOR RUSSIA, THE SAME WAY THAT IT TRAGICALLY IS A CONSTANT FOR UKRAINIANS, ESPECIALLY THOSE IN KYIV.

>> SO IT IS SCALEABLE, THE TECH IS THERE, AND UKRAINE HAS REACHED THE CAPABILITIES.

IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE, BUT ONLY A YEAR AND A HALF AGO, TWO YEARS, THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME UKRAINE DEPLOYED DEEP STRIKES, THE FIRST DRONES.

SO UKRAINE HAS DEVELOPED ITS TECH.

I THINK WHAT IT DOES, IT LEADS TO A STALEMATE SORT OF, NO MOVEMENT IN THE AIR FIGHT.

THEY ATTACK US, WE ATTACK THEM.

WE INTERCEPT 95%, THEY INTERCEPT 95%.

WE CAN GO ON FOREVER.

WHAT'S THE POINT?

>> AND YET, IT IS SOMETHING THAT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY SAYS THAT THE COUNTRY IS STILL IN DESPERATE NEED OF, WESTERN INTERCEPTERS.

WHEN YOU SAY THIS BACK AND FORTH WITHOUT A GREATER NUMBER OF WESTERN INTERCEPTERS, HOW LONG CAN UKRAINE SUSTAIN THIS?

I WILL IMAGINE YOU WILL LIKELY SEE MORE STRIKES NOW FROM RUSSIA.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THE WEAK SPOT IN ALL OF THIS DISCUSSION IS BALLISTIC MISSILES.

WE DO NOT HAVE ANY REASONABLE WAY AT THIS POINT TO INTERCEPT THEM, AND THEY DO REAL DAMAGE.

THEY KILL PEOPLE, AND THEY DESTROY CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE AND WHATEVER RUSSIA CHOOSES TO DO.

SOME OF THEM MIRACULOUSLY GET INTERCEPTED, BUT THAT'S A PROBLEM.

AND THE U. S. TECH, WESTERN TECH, IS IMPORTANT FOR THAT.

>> AND SO HOW LIKELY IS IT FROM KYIV'S PERSPECTIVE THAT THE UNITED STATES WILL CONTINUE TO PROVIDE THESE INTERCEPTERS?

WE HAVEN'T HEARD PRESIDENT TRUMP SAY AS MUCH.

IT WAS ONLY LAST YEAR THERE SEEMED TO BE AN AGREEMENT WHERE WEAPONS WOULD BE SOLD TO EUROPE AND EUROPE WOULD PROVIDE THE NEEDED WEAPONS FOR UKRAINE.

IT SEEMS TO BE BACKTRACKED, IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN THE WAR IN IRAN WHICH HAS REQUIRED A GREAT DEAL OF U. S. RESOURCES.

>> YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

THEY'RE STILL BEING PROVIDED BUT THE SITUATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST, IN IRAN, HAS INCREASED DEMAND FOR INTERCEPTERS.

NOW ALSO IN THE STATES AND AROUND THE GULF.

SO THAT IS A PRESSURE POINT ON UKRAINE.

AND IT IS A PRESSURE POINT.

>> RUSSIA FIRED MORE THAN 1,400 DRONES AND MISSILES AT UKRAINE'S POWER GRID OVER THE WINTER.

IT IS ING THAT KYIV WAS ABLE TO RESTORE ELECTRICITY AND ENTERED THE SPRING WITH RENEWED OPTIMISM ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND WITH THE ELECTRICAL GRID.

THEY CAN REALISTICALLY HOLD THAT GRID.

AS WE APPROACH A SAD CONTINUATION OF THE WAR PERHAPS INTO THE SIXTH YEAR AND WINTER.

>> UNFORTUNATELY, I FEAR THE SAME.

I THINK HOWEVER THE GRID, THE APPROACH TO ELECTRICITY RESILIENCE HAS BEEN CHANGED.

IT'S NOW A DECENTRALIZED GRID OF A LOT OF SMALLER POWER GENERATION CAPABILITIES.

THAT KEEPS UKRAINE GOING AND IT'S MUCH CHEAPER.

WE'RE BUILDING THE OLD SOVIET -- REBUILDING THE OLD SOVIET POWER PLANTS MAKES NO SENSE.

BUT RUSSIA CONTINUES TO ATTACK.

WE'RE PREPARING FOR WINTER, WHICH WILL BE VERY TOUGH.

YOU'RE CORRECT.

BUT RIGHT NOW UKRAINE IS FULL OF OPTIMISM.

IT WITHSTOOD THE ATTACKS OVER THE WINTER.

IT'S WARM, GREEN, PEOPLE ARE HAPPY, AND THE FRONT LINE APPEARS TO BE MOVING IN OUR FAVOR.

>> YOU RECENTLY HIGHLIGHTED SOMETHING THAT STOOD OUT TO ME, THAT UKRAINE'S DRONE AND MILITARY TECHNOLOGY SECTOR IS BOOMING BECAUSE SOLDIERS IN PART ARE USING THEIR HAZARD PAY TO BUY FROM START-UPS AND BYPASS THE CLUNKY PROCUREMENT PROCESS.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT THAT MEANS?

>> THAT MEANS THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE CONSUMER, MILITARY, A SPECIFIC UNIT, AND THE PRODUCER, WHICH COULD BE A START- UP WITH A NEW TECH, INNOVATION, IS REALLY, REALLY SHORT.

JUST ONE CALL AWAY.

AND THAT'S LEGAL.

YOU CAN BE A MILITARY UNIT AND DIRECTLY BUY, PURCHASE DIRECTLY FROM A PRIVATE COMPANY, WHICH EXISTS FOR TWO WEEKS.

THAT GENERATES SOME RISKS, AND IT WOULDN'T BE POSSIBLE IN THE EXISTING LEGACY SYSTEMS IN NATO OR MANY OTHER COUNTRIES, BUT I THINK IT'S AN INNOVATION IN PROCUREMENT THAT KEEPS UKRAINE RUNNING AND PROVIDES A FANTASTIC MARKET AND FUNDING FOR THE BOOMING DEFENSE TECH INDUSTRY IN UKRAINE.

I THINK IT'S ONE OF THE --NOT THE ONLY ONE -- BUT ONE OF THE INNOVATIONS WHICH KEEPS UKRAINE GOING.

>> A NUMBER OF STEPS AHEAD IN MODERN DAY WARFARE, AS DRONES HAVE PROVEN TO BE AND THE WORLD IS CLOSELY WATCHING.

POLITICAL SHOCKWAVES.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY'S FORMER RIGHT-HAND MAN, CHIEF OF STAFF, IS BEHIND BARS FACING MULTIPLE CORRUPTION AND MONEY LAUNDERING CHARGES.

WE HAVEN'T HEARD MUCH FROM PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY ON THIS, I IMAGINE TRYING TO HOLD UP THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM THERE.

BUT GIVEN THE PROXIMITY AND CLOSENESS OF TWO MEN FOR YEARS PRIOR TO THEIR POLITICAL CAREERS, HOW MUCH WEIGHT IS ON PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY'S SHOULDERS NOW AS MORE AND MORE IS BEING EXPOSED?

>> I THINK THERE ARE THREE POINTS TO UNDERSTAND THIS.

FIRST, IT'S TRUE THERE IS A LOT OF PRESSURE ON PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.

IT'S TRUE HE'S DISTANCING HIMSELF, ALSO THAT THE ANTICORRUPTION INVESTIGATION PROSECUTION OFFICES SAID EXPLICITLY THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS NOT PART OF THE INVESTIGATION AND IS NOT ON THE RECORDINGS, THE TAPES, ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

NUMBER TWO, THERE IS A VERY VIBRANT OPPOSITION RIGHT NOW IN UKRAINE TRYING TO USE THIS MOMENTUM TO BRING FORWARD SOME KIND OF PRESSURE.

SOME PEOPLE HOPE FOR ELECTIONS IN FACT.

SOME ARE OPPOSING IT.

IT'S A VERY LIVID DEBATE IN UKRAINE ABOUT WHAT TO DO.

IT'S SAD AND EXCITING AT ONCE.

NO ONE CAN CLAIM THERE'S NO DEMOCRACY IN UKRAINE.

THIRD POINT I THINK, IT PROVES THAT THE UKRAINIAN JUSTICE SYSTEM IS INDEPENDENT.

I'M NOT SAYING IT'S A WALK IN THE PARK OR PRETTY, THIS PROCESS, NO.

BUT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO IMAGINE IN MANY EVEN DEVELOPED COUNTRIES THAT YOU WOULD HAVE REASONABLE MEANINGFUL PROSECUTION OF A TOP TWO PERSON.

I'M NOT QUALIFIED TO JUDGE ON THE SUBSTANCE OF THE CASE AND DON'T WANT TO ACCUSE ANYONE OR ASSUME.

BUT IT'S PROOF THAT UKRAINE IS DEMOCRACY.

AND THE INSTITUTIONS OF WAR.

>> YOU CAN'T OVERSTATE THE POWER HE WIELDED IN THE COUNTRY FOR YEARS NOW.

TO SEE HIM BEHIND BARS IS REALLY QUITE STUNNING.

NOW LET ME ASK YOU A BROADER QUESTION.

IT'S MORE HINDSIGHT QUESTION BUT NONETHELESS I THINK RELEVANT.

IF THE UNITED STATES UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD PERMITTED DEEP RANGE ATTACKS BY UKRAINE INTO RUSSIA, MOSCOW YEARS AGO, RATHER THAN JUST PRESSURING UKRAINE TO FOCUS ON DEFENSIVE WEAPONS AND RESPONSES, DO YOU THINK THE FRONT LINES COULD LOOK RADICALLY DIFFERENT TODAY?

>> YEAH.

ABSOLUTELY.

AND AGAIN, I SPOKE ABOUT THIS ON RECORD MULTIPLE TIMES.

WE HAD THIS OPPORTUNITY IN THE FALL OF 2022 WHEN THE RUSSIAN ARMY COLLAPSED.

AND THAT WAS THE TIME WHERE WE COULD HAVE PUSHED RUSSIANS BACK TO THE BORDER.

AND THAT WOULD BE IT, I THINK.

WOULD HAVE BEEN --WOULD HAVE SAVED TENS OF THOUSANDS IF NOT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVES AND THE WAR WOULD HAVE BEEN OVER.

BUT AT THE TIME THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE UNITED STATES STOPPED AND PUT PRESSURE ON UKRAINE NOT TO PUSH HARD ON RUSSIA BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID, I'M HEARING, I CAN'T PROVE IT, BUT THERE WERE CONCERNS OF ESCALATION, THE COLLAPSE OF RUSSIA, NUCLEAR POWER STATE, WHO WILL GET THE NUKES, AND LEGITIMATE CONSTRAINTS AND CONCERNS BUT YOU SEE WHERE IT GOT US TODAY.

>> THOUSANDS OF LIVES LOST ON THE ONE HAND BUT INNOVATIVE INDUSTRIAL DOMESTIC DEFENSE BASE SPECIFICALLY AROUND DRONE TECHNOLOGY.

ONE HAS TO WONDER IF IT WOULD BE WHERE IT WAS NOW HAD IT NOT BEEN THE UNITED STATES PREVENTING UKRAINE FROM THESE STRIKES BACK THEN.

ALWAYS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE TIME.

> >> NOW, WASHINGTON'S ONGOING PRESSURE CAMPAIGN IS MAKING LIFE IN CUBA UNBEARABLE.

OIL RESERVES THAT RUN THE BELEAGUERED ELECTRICAL GRID ARE ALL BUT SPENT WITH MONTHS OF SCORCHING SUMMER HEAT AHEAD.

AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS RAMPING UP PRESSURE, PREPARING AN INDICTMENT AGAINST FORMER LEADER RAUL CASTRO.

IT WAS A HIGHLY UNUSUAL VISIT FROM THE HEAD OF AN AGENCY THAT'S TRIED REPEATEDLY TO SABOTAGE THE CASTRO REVOLUTION.

--STRESS THAT CUBA IS NOT A THREAT TO THE U. S. BUT WARNED THAT A U. S. MILITARY ASSAULT ON CUBA WOULD CAUSE A QUOTE BLOODBATH WITH INCALCULABLE CONSEQUENCES.

HE SERVED UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN AND RECENTLY RETURNED FROM VENEZUELA, JUAN, WE KNOW THAT CUBA HAS RELIED ON VENEZUELAN OIL FOR YEARS.

MADURO IS GONE AND WASHINGTON IS ATTEMPTING TO NORMALIZE RELATIONS WITH CARACAS.

HOW MUCH OF THAT HAS ACCELERATED THE ECONOMIC COLLAPSE IN CUBA?

>> IT'S SITTING.

CUBA IS EXPERIENCING THE WORST CRISIS IN ITS MODERN HISTORY WITHOUT THE SOVIET UNION OR VENEZUELA ABLE TO COME TO THE RESCUE.

U. S. POLICY IS ACCELERATING THE COLLAPSE WITHOUT A PLAN FOR WHAT COMES NEXT.

DAMAGE TO THE TOURISM SECTOR HAS BEEN DONE.

IT'S NOT GOING TO RETURN IF THE EMBARGO IS LIFTED.

RIGHT NOW THERE'S ALSO A --BEYOND THE OIL BLOCKADE, THERE'S AN IMPACT ON CONFIDENCE.

IF SANCTIONS ARE LIFTED TOMORROW, INVESTORS ARE NOT GOING INTO THE COUNTRY BECAUSE THERE'S UNPREDICTABILITY ON THE PART OF THE UNITED STATES.

THERE'S LASTING DAMAGE BEEN DONE TO THE CUBAN ECONOMY.

THE QUESTION IS NOT WHETHER THE SYSTEM IS FAILING BUT WHETHER U. S. POLICY IS DESIGNED TO PRODUCE A TRANSITION OR WHETHER IT WILL PRODUCE A CATASTROPHE.

>> IT'S THE LATTER THE U. S. SAYS THEY WANT TO AVOID, CUBA HAS ACCEPTED SOME AID.

LET'S LISTEN TO SOME RESIDENTS.

>> Translator: THE CHILDREN DON'T HAVE FOOD TO EAT, AREN'T GOING TO SCHOOL.

WE'RE DESPERATE, THE WOMEN, WE'VE LOST 20 POUNDS AND ARE ANXIOUS, WE DON'T HAVE A WAY TO SUPPORT OUR KIDS.

>> Translator: WE'RE DEMANDING THE RIGHT TO HAVE ELECTRICITY.

WE'VE GONE MORE THAN 40 HOURS WITHOUT ELECTRICITY.

I LIVE IN A COMMUNITY WHERE THERE ARE MANY ELDERLY PEOPLE, MANY BEDRIDDEN.

MANY CHILDREN.

FOOD IS GOING BAD INSIDE THE REFRIGERATORS, THE LITTLE FOOD THAT CAN BE OBTAINED.

>> WHAT DOES THAT $100 MILLION PROVIDE FOR THE ISLAND NATION NOW, JUAN?

>> IT'S NOT GOING TO BE ENOUGH.

RIGHT NOW IT WILL BE BASIC SUBSISTENCE, IDEALLY AS THE U. S. GOVERNMENT AND --RUBIO HAS INSISTED IT WILL BE DISTRIBUTED BY OTHERS BESIDES THE GOVERNMENT.

RIGHT NOW PEOPLE ARE HAVING TO DEAL WITHOUT FOOD.

THERE IS A DANGER, BEYOND HUMANITARIAN CRISIS, IF THE ELECTRICAL GRID IS FAILING, IT WILL LAND ON FLORIDA.

MASS MIGRATION COULD BE A CHALLENGE.

WE'VE GOT TO RECOGNIZE THAT THOSE CUBANS WITH ENOUGH MONEY TO LEAVE HAVE LEFT.

THE REST HAVE LIMITED OPTIONS.

THE CUBAN GOVERNMENT HAS TO CARE ABOUT THE SITUATION MORE THAN SOUTH FLORIDA DOES.

THERE IS A BREAKING POINT AT SOME POINT.

THE REGIME WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE POPULATION THAT'S THERE.

THAT'S LEVERAGE FOR THE UNITED STATES IF IT'S SMART ENOUGH TO USE IT.

BUT THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION NOW IS DIRE.

ANY OUTCOME OR SOLUTION HAS TO BE CENTERED ON THE WELL- BEING OF THE CUBAN PEOPLE AT THIS POINT.

>> YOU MENTIONED LEVERAGE FOR THE U. S. IT SAID IT WANTS HAVANA TO OPEN UP THE ECONOMY AND CUT TIES WITH RUSSIA, CHINA, IRAN.

DO YOU EXPECT TO SEE CUBA DO THAT?

>> I SAY TWO POINTS.

THE ADMINISTRATION IS TREATING CUBA AS VENEZUELA 2.

0 AND IT ISN'T.

THE HEAD OF THE CUBAN NATIONAL FOUNDATION WROTE AN ARTICLE WHERE HE SAID THAT VENEZUELAN PLAYBOOK WON'T WORK IN CUBA AND I THINK WASHINGTON SHOULD LISTEN TO THAT.

VENEZUELA, I WAS JUST THERE, FACTIONAL ISSUES TO EXPLOIT.

CUBA DOESN'T.

AFTER SEVEN DECADES OF SINGLE PARTY RULE IN CUBA, THE STATE, MILITARY, THEY'RE ALL FUSED.

THERE'S NO INTERNAL TURMOIL, AND PRESSURE WITHOUT A POLITICAL STRATEGY WILL NOT PRODUCE A TRANSITION BUT A COLLAPSE.

A POTENTIAL DEAL, THERE'S AN AREA WHERE DONALD TRUMP CAN DECLARE VICTORY AND CUBANS FEEL LIKE THEY HAVEN'T CAPITULATED.

IT'S SUSPENDING PART OF THE ACTS FOR SOME SECTORS.

AND CUBANS PRIVILEGE U. S. INVESTMENT, RELEASE POLITICAL PRISONERS.

LET CUBANS SET UP BUSINESSES WITHOUT GOING THROUGH THE STATE, AND FORCE THE STATE-OWNED ENTERPRISES TO COMPETE.

THAT'S NOT A GIFT, BUT A STRUCTURAL REFORM WITH SOME AMERICAN FINGERPRINTS THAT COULD LEAD TO A VICTORY.

YOU'RE SEEING THE RHETORIC FOR REGIME CHANGE INSIDE OF CUBA.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

IT HAS MORE SIMILARITIES WITH IRAN.

INSTITUTIONALIZED COMMUNIST PARTY.

>> TO THAT POINT, THE MESSAGE THAT CIA DIRECTOR RATCLIFF'S VERY PUBLIC VISIT TO HAVANA WAS MEANT TO SEND WAS A WARNING AGAINST HOSTILE ACTIONS.

AND COMPARING THE SITUATION THERE MORE TO WITH A WE'RE SEEING UNFOLD IN IRAN VERSUS VENEZUELA.

YOU ARGUED THAT EXTERNAL PRESSURE STRENGTHENS THE REGIME'S SIEGE NARRATIVE.

HOW?

GIVEN THE MASSIVE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS ON THE GROUND, WHAT IS IT DRIVING THE CUBANS TO RALLY AROUND THE FLAG?

>> I THINK --WHEN YOU TALK TO CUBANS, AND I TALK TO CUBAN AMERICANS WITH CONTACTS ON THE ISLAND.

THEY WANT CHANGE.

SICK OF THE CUBAN REGIME.

BUT THEY'RE NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO EMBRACE A U. S. IMPOSED TRANSITION.

I THINK PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT VENEZUELA.

IT LOOKS LIKE THE U. S. PRIVATE SECTOR IS TAKING OVER THEIR ENTIRE ECONOMY.

IT'S GOING TO BE MORE CHALLENGING IN CUBA.

THE CIA VISIT, OFTEN THE CIA IS THE BEST MESSENGER.

MINISTRY OF THE INTERIOR HAS MORE INFORMATION THAN THE FOREIGN MINISTRY.

AND THE IMPORTANT THINGS TO CONVEY, THE MESSAGES ABOUT RUSSIA AND CHINA ARE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.

BUT THE CUBANS HAD CROSSED THE RUBICON WITH RUSSIA AND CHINA BECAUSE OF PRESSURE FROM THE UNITED STATES.

THE CUBANS WOULD MUCH MORE WANT TO ENGAGE WITH THE U. S. ON ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL OPERATION.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO RUBIO, I FEEL HE'S TRYING TO FIND A BALANCE BETWEEN THE PRESSURE FROM SOUTH FLORIDA AND WHAT DONALD TRUMP WOULD SEE AS A POLITICAL WIN.

WHAT I LAID OUT WOULD BE THE CONTOURS OF A POTENTIAL AGREEMENT.

BUT IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING WHERE THE CUBANS DON'T FEEL THEY'RE CAPITULATING.

THEY WILL CUT OFF THEIR NOSE TO SPITE THEIR FACE IF PRESSURED INTO A SITUATION.

>> MARCO RUBIO, HIS PARENTS CAME TO THE U. S. AS POLITICAL REFUGEES FROM CUBA.

YOU YOURSELF SAY IT SHOULDN'T BE A SANCTIONS FILE.

THERE'S BEEN CARROT AND STICK APPROACH FOR DECADES FROM THE U. S. BUT WE'RE SEEING PUBLIC CALLS FOR REGIME CHANGE FOR THE FIRST TIME.

RUBIO.

>> IT'S A BROKEN, NONFUNCTIONAL ECONOMY AND IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE IT.

I WISH IT WERE DIFFERENT BUT IT'S MY OPINION YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE ECONOMIC TRAJECTORY OF CUBA AS LONG AS THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF IT NOW ARE IN CHARGE OF IT.

THAT'S GOING TO HAVE TO CHANGE.

THESE PEOPLE HAVE PROVEN INCAPABLE.

>> WHAT DO THOSE COMMENTS SAY TO YOU?

>> I AGREE ENTIRELY.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT U. S. POLICY TOWARD CUBA HAS BEEN SHAPED BY THE POLITICAL CALCULUS OF SOUTH FLORIDA, NOT THE THEORY OF CHANGE.

EMBARGOES IN EFFECT, THAT'S ACKNOWLEDGED FOR DECADES, BUT THE COST HAS ALWAYS EXCEEDED.

IT'S NOT WHICH PARTY IS RIGHT OR WRONG, WE HAVE TO FOCUS ON THE APPROACH.

THE QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU GET THERE?

THE UNITED STATES IS GOING TO INDICT RAUL CASTRO, ARE THEY GOING TO INFILTRATE TO TAKE OUT AN OLD MAN?

IT WILL BE CELEBRATED IN SOUTH FLORIDA BUT WILL IT LEAD TO TRANSITION?

CUBA IS LIKE HAITI.

IT'S BRAIN DRAIN, IMPACT OF SANCTIONS HAS BEEN LASTING.

IT'S NOT VENEZUELA WITH AN ECONOMY THAT CAN REV UP.

INSTITUTIONS ARE MUCH MORE DIFFICULT.

IS THE U. S. WILLING TO HAVE MORE PERMANENT PRESENCE INSIDE OF CUBA?

IS THERE A SITUATION WHERE THERE'S ENOUGH PRESSURE THE REGIME CRACKS AND MAYBE THE U. S. IS DEALING WITH SOME COMBINATION OF ACTORS TO TRY TO RULE THE COUNTRY?

PERHAPS, BUT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING TO NEGOTIATE AGAINST THEIR OWN SURVIVAL.

THEY'LL WANT TO KEEP AS RAUL CASTRO'S GRANDSON SAID, CAPITALISM WITH SOVEREIGNTY.

THAT MEANS SOME CHANGES, SOME PULLED OUT, BUT DON'T GET TO NEGOTIATE THEIR OWN ENDS.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE POTENTIAL INDICTMENT.

AS SOON AS WEDNESDAY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS TO INDICT 94-YEAR- OLD RAUL CASTRO FOR THE SHOOT DOWN OF TWO CIVILIAN PLANES BY A MIAMI BASED HUMANITARIAN GROUP THAT KILLED FOUR PEOPLE.

WHAT WOULD BE THE STRATEGIC VALUE OF ARRESTING AND CAPTURING A 94-YEAR-OLD MAN, YET JUSTICE HAS BEEN DENIED.

THAT'S ONE ARGUMENT.

IF I COULD GO BACK TO YOUR POINT ABOUT CUBA'S TIES WITH RUSSIA IN PARTICULAR, AXIOS IS REPORTING THAT CUBA HAS STOCKPILED OVER 300 ATTACK DRONES FROM RUSSIA AND IRAN WITH INTERNALLY CHATTER OF TARGETING GUANTANAMO BAY OR KEY WEST.

HOW ALARMED SHOULD THE U. S. BE IF THAT'S THE CASE?

>> YEAH, THAT REPORT ALSO REFERRED TO THIS INTELLIGENCE SECTION GOING BACK TO 2023.

AS AN ACTIVE CONSUMER OF INTELLIGENCE, THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

IT MAY HAVE BEEN NOT CREDIBLE, BUT AS SOMEONE -- >> I'M SORRY, WHAT'S NOT THE CASE?

>> THAT THERE WAS TALK OF ACQUIRING DRONES AS FAR AS 2023.

THAT'S NOT ACCURATE REPORT.

BUT DOES CUBA HAVE 300 DRONES?

MAYBE.

MAYBE THEY DO.

BUT REMEMBER THESE GUYS ARE SO STARVED FOR FUEL THAT THEIR NAVAL PATROLS ARE BASICALLY RUNNING.

300 DRONES ARE NOTHING.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY CREDIBILITY TO THE SUGGESTION THAT CUBANS WOULD UNILATERALLY ATTACK GITMO.

DEFENSIVELY, PERHAPS, BUT WOULD THAT ACHIEVE SOMETHING WITH THE UNITED STATES?

IT'S NOT CREDIBLE TO SUGGEST THEY'RE TRYING TO TO DO IT.

BUT THE ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO LAY THE PREDICATE TO AN EXTRACTION.

NOT TO BE AN APOLOGIST OF THE REGIME.

IT'S CRUEL, GUILTY OF HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES.

BUT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BLOCKADE A COUNTRY INTO DEMOCRACY.

YOU CAN BLOCKADE IT INTO CHAOS.

PRESSURE WITHOUT POLITICAL STRATEGY IS JUST MAXIMIZING THE SUFFERING.

THE RISK IS NOT PRESSURE FAILS BUT IT SUCCEEDS.

THE ADMINISTRATION HAS SHOWN WAY TOO MUCH IMPROVISATION IN FOREIGN POLICY AND CUBA IS NO DIFFERENT.

>> JUAN GONZALEZ, THANKS FOR THE TIME.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

> >> NEXT WE TURN TO THE REMARKABLE LIFE OF CIVIL RIGHTS PIONEER W. E. B. DUBOIS, A SCHOLAR, JOURNALIST, ACTIVITY, FIRST BLACK MAN TO GET A Ph.

D. FROM HARVARD.

"W. E. B. DUBOIS: REBEL WITH A CAUSE".

>> I VERY EARLY GOT THE IDEA I WAS GOING TO PROVE TO THE WORLD THAT NEGROS ERE JUST LIKE OTHER PEOPLE.

>> MICHELLE MARTIN SITS DOWN WITH THE FILM'S AWARD WINNING DIRECTOR RITA COBURN.

THEY DISCUSS DUBOIS' GROUNDBREAKING WORK AND HIS LEGACY.

>> THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

IT'S AN HONOR TO TALK ABOUT W. E. B. DUBOIS.

>> SUCH A SEMINAL FIGURE OF POLITICAL ACTIVISM, THE ACADEMY, OF SOCIOLOGY, OF SO MANY DISCIPLINES.

AS A PATRON OF THE ARTS.

GIVE US THE SHORT VERSION.

HE WAS BORN IN A SMALL TOWN IN WESTERN MASSACHUSETTS, 1868, AFTER THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION WHICH ENDED SLAVERY FOR 3.

5 MILLION BLACK MEN AND WOMEN, BUT HIS FAMILY WAS NEVER ENSLAVED.

TELL ME THAT STORY, WHAT WERE THEY DOING THERE?

>> HE WAS BORN IN 1868, THAT'S THREE YEARS AFTER THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION.

HOWEVER BECAUSE HE WAS IN GREAT BARRINGTON, MASSACHUSETTS, THERE HAD NOT BEEN ENSLAVEMENT FOR SEVERAL GENERATIONS THERE.

SO HIS FAMILY WAS SOLIDLY PLACED THERE.

AND AS A RESULT OF THAT, NOT TO SAY THERE WASN'T RACISM, BUT WHITES AND BLACKS HAD BEEN LIVING WITH ONE ANOTHER FOR AT LEAST A CENTURY BY THAT TIME.

WHAT HE DID WAS HE WAS SUCH A STUDENT THAT HIS MOTHER IN PARTICULAR SEWED INTO HIM THAT THAT WAS THE HOPE, THE HOPE WAS EDUCATION.

DUBOIS HAS A PREP SCHOOL EDUCATION, AND IT WAS FAR MORE CLASSICAL IN THAT TIME PERIOD.

PRETTY MUCH BASED ON EUROPEAN EDUCATION AT THE TIME.

WHAT THEY FOUND WAS AS MUCH AS THEY POURED IN, HE WAS ABLE TO RECEIVE.

AND SO I THINK HIS INTELLECT, AND THE FACT THAT HE WAS NOT IN THE JIM CROW SOUTH, GAVE HIM THAT EXPANSE.

HE BECAME THE VALEDICTORIAN OF HIS CLASS.

HE WAS EXCEPTIONAL.

>> HE GOES TO FISK FOR HIS UNDERGRADUATE EDUCATION.

HE THEN EVENTUALLY DOES GET TO HARVARD FOR HIS GRADUATE STUDIES.

THEY MAKE HIM WHAT, START OVER AGAIN, EVEN THOUGH HE'S TOP OF HIS CLASS AT FISK BECAUSE WHAT, THEY DECIDED A BLACK SCHOOL WASN'T AT THE SAME LEVEL?

SO HOW DOES IT DO AT HARVARD?

>> YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT.

HE GOES TO FISK AND HE LOVES FISK.

HE FINDS HIMSELF AS A PERSON THERE, AS A BLACK PERSON.

HE'S WITH OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE LIKE HIMSELF.

HE HASN'T BEEN IN A GROUP OF EDUCATED BLACKS BEFORE.

HE ALSO BECOMES VERY ENTRENCHED IN THE SPIRITUALS FROM THE FIFTH JUBILEE SINGERS.

HE FEELS SOMETHING ABOUT IT AND COINED IT THE SORROW SOUNDS.

HE COMES INTO HIS OWN AT FISK.

HE WANTS STILL TO GO TO HARVARD, AND BY THE TIME HE'S ABLE TO GET THE MONEY AND GET TO HARVARD, HE IS AN UNDERGRAD.

HE LIKES HARVARD, LOVES THE MASSACHUSETTS SOCIAL GROUP OF BLACKS HE'S MET, BUT DOESN'T FEEL THAT MUCH A PART OF THEM ACADEMICALLY.

IT'S STILL A VERY RACIST PLACE FOR HIM.

SO HE IS ABLE TO PETITION TO GO TO BERLIN, WHICH IS WHERE SOCIOLOGY IS REALLY STARTING TO BEGIN, AND AS HE GETS THERE, HE'S ABLE TO FIND WHAT HE WANTS TO DO FROM A SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE.

AND ONCE HE DOES THAT, UNFORTUNATELY, HE'S NOT ABLE TO GRADUATE THERE BECAUSE HIS RESIDENCY WAS FOR TWO YEARS AND IT WOULD BE THREE YEARS FOR HIM TO GET HIS Ph.

D. THERE.

SO HE COMES BACK TO HARVARD AND THAT'S WHERE HE GETS HIS Ph.

D. .

>> BUT HE'S THE FIRST --DO I HAVE THIS RIGHT?

HE'S THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN TO GET A Ph.

D. FROM HARVARD?

>> THE FIRST FOIRN TO AFRICAN AMERICAN TO GET A Ph.

D. FROM HARVARD.

>> AND TOOK THE TECHNIQUES TO PHILADELPHIA, HIS FIRST JOB AFTER HIS STUDIES, HIRED TO DO A STUDY OF THE BLACK POPULATION OF PHILADELPHIA.

WOULD YOU DESCRIBE WHY THAT WAS A UNIQUE ANALYSIS AT THE TIME.

>> THE PHILADELPHIA NEGRO IS CITED AS THE FIRST EMPIRICAL STUDY IN SOCIOLOGY OF A CLASS AND A GROUP.

HE GOES TO THE SEVENTH WARD AND DECIDES HE'S GOING TO LIVE IN THE SEVENTH WARD.

SO HE AND NINA GOMER, HE'S MARRIED, HIS FIRST JOB WAS WILBUR FORREST, BUT DOING MATH AND SCIENCE AND HE WANTED TO DO SOCIOLOGY.

THIS STUDY COMES UP, HE GOES.

HE'S NOT GIVEN A PROFESSORSHIP, JUST THERE TO DO THE RESEARCH AND STUDY.

BASICALLY WHAT PHILADELPHIA IS SAYING IS THAT WE'RE A BORDER CITY, PRETTY MUCH.

WE'RE GETTING SO MANY BLACK PEOPLE HERE, AND THESE PEOPLE ARE BASICALLY RUINING OUR ECONOMY, THEY'RE LIVING IN SLUM CONDITIONS, THEY'RE -- IT MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM.

THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE.

AND HE DOES THE STUDY AND TURNS THAT ON ITS HEAD.

AND SAYS IT'S NOT THEM, IT'S THE WAY THEY'RE BEING TREATED IN THE SOCIETY.

IF THEY HAVE TO WALK THESE MANY MILES TO GO TO SCHOOL, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO GO TO SCHOOL.

IF BLACK WOMEN CAN'T GET JOBS, THEN THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO HELP THEIR FAMILIES.

SO WHAT YOU HAVE IS A SYSTEM THAT IS FIGHTING AGAINST PEOPLE AS OPPOSED TO PEOPLE THAT ARE FIGHTING YOU.

THEY ARE DOING THE BEST THAT THEY CAN.

IF THEY HAVE TO LIVE IN CRAMPED HOUSING, THEY'RE GOING TO COME OUT IN THE SUMMER AND HANG OUT ON THE STREET.

IF THEY CAN'T MAKE MONEY, THEY'RE GOING TO DO THINGS THEY WOULDN'T NORMALLY DO IF THEY HAD A FAIR CHANCE.

HE DOES THAT ALL WITH DATA, CHARTS AND GRAPHS.

AT THIS POINT HE'S STILL BENT ON THE SCIENCE OF THE MATTER.

IF I CAN SHOW YOU SCIENTIFICALLY WHAT IS WRONG, YOU AS A SOCIETY, AS A COMMUNITY, WILL ACCEPT US.

AND THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

?

>> HE MOVES FROM PHILADELPHIA TO ATLANTA TO BECOME A PROFESSOR AT A UNIVERSITY THERE.

SEMINAL MOMENT.

HE QUICKLY GETS A REALITY CHECK ABOUT WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE IN A BLACK MAN IN THE SOUTH.

WILL YOU TELL US WHAT IT WAS?

>> WHEN DUBOIS GOES INTO THE DEEP SOUTH, GOES INTO ATLANTA, HE'S AT ATLANTA UNIVERSITY, AND THAT CAMPUS KIND OF SITS ON A HILL AWAY FROM SOME OF THE RACISM IN THE TOWN, BUT IT'S ALSO AN INTEGRATED UNIVERSITY.

MOST OF THESE UNIVERSITIES AT THE TIME HAD A LOT OF WHITES THAT HAD GONE TO DARTMOUTH AND PRINCETON TEACHING THERE.

THEY WERE TEACHING ALONGSIDE BLACKS.

SO HE IS ATLANTA, AND AT THE SAME TIME, HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND HOW BAD THE SOUTH REALLY IS.

UNTIL IN 1899, SAM HOSE IS MURDER, LYNCHED IN A BRUTAL WAY.

THIS IS HIS FIRST RECKONING WITH LYNCHING.

THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT HE'S SEEN, BEEN A PART OF.

AND THE HORROR OF THAT MOMENT, THEY BURN HIS BODY, CUT OFF HIS FINGERS AND GENITALS.

IT'S A HORRIFIC MOMENT FOR HIM.

AND IT SPEAKS TO SOMETHING THAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS COUNTRY AT THAT TIME.

AND HE IS SO APPALLED BY IT, HE'S THINKING I'M GOING TO TAKE A LETTER TO THE ATLANTA JOURNAL CONSTITUTION.

AND EN ROUTE, HE'S TOLD THAT SAM HOSE'S FINGERS AND TOES ARE IN THE WINDOW OF THE MEAT MARKET.

AT THAT POINT HE TURNS AROUND, HE DECIDES SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH IS NOT GOING TO WORK.

I MUST NOW TELL PEOPLE WHAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING.

AND HE DECIDES THAT WHAT HE'S REALLY GOING TO DO IS BECOME A JOURNALIST.

THAT'S WHAT HE DECIDES HE'S GOING TO DO.

HE IS GOING TO EVENTUALLY BE A PERSON WHO IS THE EDITOR OF THE CRISIS MAGAZINE.

HE'S GOING TO BEGIN TO DO STUDIES AND WRITE.

>> THE TITLE WAS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

THE CRISIS OF THE COLOR LINE WAS THE CRISIS OF AMERICA.

>> NOT ONLY IS HE GOING TO BECOME A SOCIAL ACTIVIST, BUT HE UNDERSTANDS THE POWER OF THE PRESS.

>> HE INSISTED THAT I HAVE ALL EDITORIAL PRIVILEGE AND POWER.

NOBODY WILL DICTATE TO ME WHAT I CAN SAY.

>> AND I THINK WHAT IS BEAUTIFUL ABOUT THIS IS THAT WE HAVE FREDERICK DOUGLASS BEING THE GREAT ORATOR, BUT YOU COULD ONLY REACH SO MANY PEOPLE AT A TIME.

IT'S THIS POINT IN THE COUNTRY THAT PRINT TAKES OFF.

IT'S THE INTERNET OF THE TIME PERIOD.

>> TELL US ABOUT "THE SOULS OF BLACK FOLK," THE ONE PIECE ABOUT DUBOIS THAT PEOPLE KNOW.

TELL US WHERE THE IDEA OF THE BOOK CAME FROM AND WHAT'S THE CORE OF IT?

>> IN 1899, SAM HOSE GETS LYNCHED.

IT CHANGES HIM TO A PERSON WHO IS NOW GOING TO FIGHT FOR HIS PEOPLE USING WORDS, USING JOURNALISM, MAKING SURE PEOPLE KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING.

THAT'S 1899.

1900, HE GOES TO THE PARIS EXPOSITION.

HE TAKES PHOTOGRAPHS THAT SHOW THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE LIVING LIVES BEYOND DIGGING THEIR WAY OUT OF JIM CROW.

THEY'RE LIVING LIVES WITH PURPOSE, MEANING.

THEY HAVE BUSINESSES, THEY'RE STUDYING THE ARTS.

HE WANTS PEOPLE TO SEE A BROADER SCOPE OF BLACK PEOPLE.

HE COMES BACK DURING THAT SAME TIME PERIOD.

HIS SON, BURKHARDT, DIES.

HE'S LESS THAN 2 YEARS OLD AND DIES BECAUSE NO WHITE DOCTORS WILL TREAT HIM.

SO HE'S SEEING SAM HOSE DIE IN 1899, HE'S SEEING HIS SON DIE.

AT THAT POINT, HE COMES BACK AND HE SITS DOWN, AND HE WANTS TO WRITE A BOOK THAT TELLS PEOPLE THAT WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS.

THAT WE HAVE SOULS, THAT WE HURT.

THAT WE DO ART.

THAT WE HAVE PLEASURES.

THAT WE'RE PEOPLE.

"THE SOULS OF BLACK FOLKS" IS PART OF THE INTERNATIONAL AND NATIONAL LETTERS OF THIS COUNTRY.

IT'S TAUGHT IN UNIVERSITIES AND HAS BEEN SINCE ITS PUBLICATION IN 1903.

>> HE OPENS UP WITH THIS CONCEPT THAT HAS THREE PARTS.

DOUBLE CONSCIOUSNESS.

>> IT'S A PECULIAR SENSATION, THIS DOUBLE CONSCIOUSNESS, THE SENSE OF ALWAYS LOOKING AT ONESELF THROUGH THE EYES OF OTHERS, OF MEASURING ONE'S SOUL BY THE TAPE OF A WORLD THAT LOOKS ON IN AMUSED CONTEMPT AND PITY.

>> TWONESS.

>> ONE EVER FEELS HIS TWONESS.

AN AMERICAN, A NEGRO.

TWO SOULS, TWO THOUGHTS, TWO UNRECONCILED STRIVINGS, TWO WARRING IDEALS IN ONE DARK BODY.

WHOSE DOGGED STRENGTH ALONE KEEPS IT FROM BEING TORN ASUNDER?

ASUNDER.

>> THEN HE SAYS WE LIVE BEYOND THE EIL.

AT SOME POINT WILL YOU LET ME OUT, LET ME BE FREE?

>> I THINK HEARING YOU DESCRIBE IT, HOW CONTEMPORARY IT REMAINS, THIS IDEA OF BEING AT ONCE YOUR OWN PERSON BUT BEING THE OBJECT OF THE GAZE OF THE OTHER, CONSTANTLY SEEN AS THE OTHER.

THESE ARE THOUGHTS THAT PEOPLE ARE HAVING TODAY?

AS .

>> AS I WORKED ON THE DOCUMENTARY, THERE WERE TIMES I WOULD READ SOMETHING HE WROTE, GET UP FROM MY DESK, WALK OUT THE FRONT DOOR, WALK AROUND THE BLOCK.

I HAD NO PLACE TO PUT IT, YET WHAT I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND IS WHY IS THIS STILL HAPPENING.

WHEN WE WERE GOING TO LEARN THE LESSON AS A COUNTRY TO COME TOGETHER?

I THINK IT'S VERY DISCONCERTING THAT WHAT HIS WORK WAS --HIS WORK FOR THE 13th, 14th AND 15th AMENDMENT, THE IDEA THAT WE NEEDED THE RIGHT TO VOTE.

AND WHERE ARE WE NOW?

LOOK AT MEMPHIS, WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, AND WE SEE THAT HE'S STILL SPEAKING AND WE'RE STILL DEALING WITH A VERY DIFFICULT PROBLEM OF BEING ACCEPTED FULLY IN THIS SOCIETY.

>> TWO MORE THINGS WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT.

FACT THAT HE HAD BEEF WITH BOOKER T. WASHINGTON.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK SOME PEOPLE MAY KNOW ABOUT.

THE TWO OF THEM REPRESENT DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES OF THE PATH FORWARD THAT WAS IDEAL FOR BLACK FOLKS.

COULD YOU BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN?

>> W. E. B. DUBOIS AND BOOKER T. WASHINGTON, IT'S A STORY IN WHICH YOU HAVE THE UP-AND-COMING AND THE CURRENT PERSON THAT HAS KIND OF BEEN GRANDFATHERED INTO THE SOCIETY.

BOOKER T. WASHINGTON WAS THE MOST POWERFUL BLACK MAN IN AMERICA DURING THAT TIME PERIOD.

AND WHAT HAPPENS IS, W. E. B. DUBOIS IS A DIFFERENT SORT.

HE DIDN'T GROW UP IN SLAVERY.

WASHINGTON WAS A SLAVE UNTIL HE WAS 6 YEARS OLD.

HE HAD A VERY LIMITED VIEW OF WHAT WE COULD POSSIBLY DO.

THAT MAYBE WE COULD GAIN THE RIGHTS TO BE GOOD WORKERS.

MAYBE WE WOULD FIND OUR WAY THAT WAY.

DUBOIS SAID NO, WE NEED THE RIGHT TO VOTE, WE NEED WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

WE NEED TO HAVE AN AGENCY ABOUT OURSELVES.

SO HIS SANDPAPER RELATIONSHIP WITH BOOKER T. WASHINGTON STARTED WITH HIM RESPECTING HIM AND THEN SAYING, I'M SORRY, I HAVE TO PART COMPANY BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT BLACK PEOPLE NEED AT THIS POINT.

THAT'S WHY I CALL HIM A REBEL.

HE TOOK ON SEVEN PRESIDENTS, BOOKER T. WASHINGTON, MARCUS GARVEY.

IF HE DID NOT AGREE, HE DID NOT AGREE.

AND HE DID NOT AGREE WITH BOOKER T. WASHINGTON SAYING WE WOULD BE THE WORKERS OF THE SOUTH.

HE REALLY FELT IT WAS TIME TO HAVE THE 13th, 14th AND 15th AMENDMENTS REALIZED.

>> HIS LIFE CAME TO A CLOSE IN GHANA BECAUSE TOWARD THE END OF HIS LIFE, HE REALLY DID BECOME DISCOURAGED AND FEEL THAT BLACK PEOPLE WOULD NEVER BE FULLY ACCEPTED IN THE UNITED STATES, HAVE A FULL FLOURISHING.

MOVED TO GHANA, AND THAT'S WHERE HE DIED.

OF COURSE HIS PASSPORT WAS REVOKED AT ONE POINT, PERSONA NON GRATA BECAUSE HE WAS ATTRACTED TO THE SOCIALIST MOVEMENT AND COMMUNIST PARTY BECAUSE HE FELT THEY WERE MORE INTERESTED IN EQUAL RIGHTS.

TELL US ABOUT IT.

>> BOTH OF HIS CHILDREN HAVE DIED, HIS 90-SOMETHING YEARS OLD, AND HE'S BEEN ARRESTED, HANDCUFFED AND ACCUSED OF BEING AGAINST AMERICA.

BEING A COMMUNIST.

I THINK IT'S A FLICK OF THE NOSE WHEN HE DECIDES TO JOIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY ON THE SAME DAY THAT HE DECIDES TO TAKE A --DECIDES TO TAKE A FLIGHT TO GHANA.

AND KWAME IS NOW BUILDING A COUNTRY.

THAT IDEA OF FREEDOM FOR AN AFRICAN COUNTRY FROM BEING COLONIZED IS VERY ATTRACTIVE TO HIM.

AND THEY ROLL OUT THE RED CARPET FOR HIM, GIVE HIM A WONDERFUL HOME.

AND HE LIVES THREE YEARS THERE BEFORE HE PASSES.

>> RITA COBURN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> FASCINATING.

THE DOCUMENTARY WILL BE PREMIERING TOMORROW NIGHT ON PBS AMERICAN MASTERS.

> >> FINALLY SUMMITING MOUNT EVEREST ONCE IS AN ACCOMPLISHMENT.

30 TIMES.

THIS SHERPA DID THAT.

LEADING OTHERS TO THE TOP.

THIS IS HIS 28th ADVENTURE.

THE 56-YEAR- OLD FIRST CLIMBED IT IN 1994 AND HAS DONE SO NEARLY EVERY YEAR SINCE.

HE WAS BORN IN THE SAME VILLAGE AS THE FIRST SHERPA TO REACH THE WORLD'S TALLEST PEAK SEVEN DECADES AGO.

THAT'S IT FOR THE PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP, SIGN UP FOR THE NEWSLETTER.

PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

♪ ♪